Discussion:
[Scribus] Usability needs attention -- time for a feature
unknown
2008-02-02 07:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Beside, it happens i tried to replace with webdings and wingdings char,
and the displayed char appears allways a thick square instead of
the awaited character.
when typing next to it, characters dont appear, as swallowed by it.
That is quite unusual as usability behaviour.
Have i done something wrong ?
I'm not sure about the black hole, but it is very important to understand
how Scribus works with fonts and characters. It is very different from how
the MS Office suite programs handle it.

Scribus uses unicode as the character set. This means that it is important
to make sure the font used really have a glyph for the character code you
are using. Remember, all that is in the Scribus file is a charcter code (a
number). What is displayed on the screen depends on which glyph the font in
use has for that character code.

I think it sounds as if you have switched to a font which doesn't even have
placeholder glyphs for the characters you are typing.

/Peter
unknown
2008-02-02 16:02:01 UTC
Permalink
hello
I'm looking for a .deb package of Scribus 1.3.3.x for ubuntu gutsy on
powerpc (powerbook).
As far as I can see from Oleksandr Moskalenko's repository only i386 version is
http://debian.scribus.net/debian/dists/gutsy/main/
Could you suggest how to proceed to get a powerpc version?
a?e a?e a?e... you have to compile it yourself!

your lucky: it's not very hard :-)
i can post a list of commands and of packages for it, if you want to go that way...



on my side, for now, i only have a compiled version for 6.07.


i'm installing an imac with 7.10 and i will surely put ubuntu on it...
so before the end of the next week (i have to get some more ram before) i should also be able to build a binary for gutsy.
it would then be easy to send you a tar.gz in it.

now the question: is there a broader interest for linux ppc binaries for scribus?
afaik, i'm the only linux-ppc-scribus user for now.

if there is more interest i could talk to malex and get the deb into the scribus repositories.


asta il ppc siempre
a.l.e
unknown
2008-02-03 11:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
hello
[--cut cut cut--]
Post by unknown
now the question: is there a broader interest for linux ppc binaries for scribus?
afaik, i'm the only linux-ppc-scribus user for now.
PLD has up to date PPC rpms, but I don't know if someone is using them
actually except the build machines...
--
??ukasz
-------------- n?chster Teil --------------
Ein Dateianhang mit Bin???rdaten wurde abgetrennt...
Dateiname : nicht verf???gbar
Dateityp : application/pgp-signature
Dateigr??????e : 197 bytes
Beschreibung: To jest =?UTF-8?Q?cz=C4=99=C5=9B=C4=87?=
=?UTF-8?Q?_wiadomo=C5=9Bci?= podpisana cyfrowo
URL : http://nashi.altmuehlnet.de/pipermail/scribus/attachments/20080203/36b15b7e/attachment.pgp
unknown
2008-02-02 16:52:12 UTC
Permalink
OK, the black hole happenned to me also and i'm not using some fancy
strange fonts... Most of the time i use Arial, Trebuchet, Verdana or
Tahoma, but the most used is Trebuchet.
When that happens you can write but text get lost, my workaround is to
delete some text containing the black hole, then write again, also some
times lines get messed up, when changing style to one line you get the
next one changed instead of the one you tryed, this comes generally as a
signal than there's a black hole, and usually remains after black hole
has been deleted. Only workaround i have found is to save, close and
reopen document.
Also, i'm posting some images of what hapens with story editor, and the
only workaround i have found for this one is to save, close and reopen
document.
Pages are in numerical order and i will explain.
P1.jpg When trying to apply some style to a page, story editor misses
the grid where to change styles as you can see, it appears white. But,
text is formated and on its place.
P2.jpg Open story editor for a different page (also on same page other
text frame) and all styles are there, as you can see, text remains
formatted on the previous frame.
P3.jpg After closing and reopening document, you can successfully edit
text and styles again. And watch, text IS formatted, but story editor
says every line has the same style... there is something wrong.

Also, happened that, when deleting some text styles, style editor asks
to replace deleted one with other.... but it chosses any but the one i
select.
Also, Undo.... if i move a text frame, and then undo, it unodoes any
action but nothing related to text frame... i mean, it resizes an image
resized before text was moved, but text remains in the same place.

This two last didn't happenned on 1.3.3.9 and i believe neither on
1.3.3.10svn

Using WinXP SP2+ and Scribus 1.3.3.11-1

The workarounds i have found are annoying because of the time takes to a
document to open, and i mean the time it takes after green progress bar
says 100% which usually is about 1 min. and time to reach 100% is more
than normal, the same time on Win and Linux, but Linux doesn't takes the
extra time after this.
Post by unknown
Beside, it happens i tried to replace with webdings and wingdings char,
and the displayed char appears allways a thick square instead of
the awaited character.
when typing next to it, characters dont appear, as swallowed by it.
That is quite unusual as usability behaviour.
Have i done something wrong ?
I'm not sure about the black hole, but it is very important to understand
how Scribus works with fonts and characters. It is very different from how
the MS Office suite programs handle it.
Scribus uses unicode as the character set. This means that it is important
to make sure the font used really have a glyph for the character code you
are using. Remember, all that is in the Scribus file is a charcter code (a
number). What is displayed on the screen depends on which glyph the font in
use has for that character code.
I think it sounds as if you have switched to a font which doesn't even have
placeholder glyphs for the characters you are typing.
/Peter
_______________________________________________
Scribus mailing list
Scribus at nashi.altmuehlnet.de
http://nashi.altmuehlnet.de/mailman/listinfo/scribus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://nashi.altmuehlnet.de/pipermail/scribus/attachments/20080202/e9606220/attachment-0001.htm
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: P3.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 120621 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : Loading Image...
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: P2.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 123396 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : Loading Image...
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: P1.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 110034 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : Loading Image...
unknown
2008-02-03 18:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Scribus uses unicode as the character set. This means that it is important
to make sure the font used really have a glyph for the character code you
are using. Remember, all that is in the Scribus file is a charcter code (a
number). What is displayed on the screen depends on which glyph the font in
use has for that character code.
I think it sounds as if you have switched to a font which doesn't even have
placeholder glyphs for the characters you are typing.
I understand your point and thanks for considering this experience.
It might be as you say however it might not be since i replaced
with a 4 character wich is an existing black triangle looking character.
So how do i get this black triangle if not selecting 4
and changing its font ?

An important thing in this usability discussion is that this happened
in a less than one minute experience
(i was just checking before answering to a mail on this discussion !).

Sure, i can find a way to overcome that obstacle
(close and reopen the app as proposes Richard).
But I cannot accept to encounter et overcome such obstacles
every minute in such a tricky way !
And please remember that this is just emerging from the last point
in my reply about that un-usability conclusion.

Strange however : some people are very happy with Scribus
and seem to use it to do things close to what I need to do !

JL
unknown
2008-02-03 19:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
I understand your point and thanks for considering this experience.
It might be as you say however it might not be since i replaced
with a 4 character wich is an existing black triangle looking character.
This sounds just as I was thinking you meant. You are thinking in the old
ways of "8 bit ascii code" and fonts with different symbols for the
different codes. Like you said, one font has a "4" for that character code
and another font has some other symbol. You can do like that in the old MS
Office programs.

But, if I understand right, with unicode fonts things don't really work like
that.
Post by unknown
So how do i get this black triangle if not selecting 4
and changing its font ?
You should probably use the "Insert symbol" function (I'm not sure if that
is the correct name, I don't have Scribus in frotn of me).

/Peter
unknown
2008-02-04 08:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
But, if I understand right, with unicode fonts things don't really work like
that.
What is the general frame of thought for character coding in scribus ?

Some fonts are coded with one byte and some others on 2 bytes ?

How to know ?

Is there not a user-friendly way to unify this as a UI ?

PS : I am no MS nor Ooo user.
Post by unknown
You should probably use the "Insert symbol" function (I'm not sure if that
is the correct name, I don't have Scribus in frotn of me).
OK.
First inserting the symbol, than copying it, then pasting it in the replace area
(it displays as a big point) thant selecting the good font for replacement
(it keeps displaying as a big point) and i am able to replace it.

There might be a way to replace with such special char using its 2 bytes code
(but it is not very user friendly these 2 bytes codes = 4 coded character codes)

Using special symbols (like phone, enumerations or email signs)
is not easy (the insert dialog requires many actions before effect)
that is why i use >tel: or >em: text conventions instead of them
and then replace them for the whole doc.

If there was a "usefull & easy to access few character user-library"
(as there is some kind for the container objects)
that would easen the process.


This is about usability.

JL
unknown
2008-02-04 13:56:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
But, if I understand right, with unicode fonts things don't really work like
that.
What is the general frame of thought for character coding in scribus ?
Some fonts are coded with one byte and some others on 2 bytes ?
Most fonts support more than one encoding. Unicode has the advantage that
*all* known encodings can be mapped to Unicode. If there are non-standard
glyphs in a font, they can still be mapped to the Private Use Area in
Unicode.

Internally Scribus stores Unicode only. So if a font fails to provide a
Unicode
mapping for its glyphs, it's lost to Scribus.
Post by unknown
How to know ?
Is there not a user-friendly way to unify this as a UI ?
PS : I am no MS nor Ooo user.
Post by unknown
You should probably use the "Insert symbol" function (I'm not sure if that
is the correct name, I don't have Scribus in frotn of me).
OK.
First inserting the symbol, than copying it, then pasting it in the replace area
(it displays as a big point) thant selecting the good font for replacement
(it keeps displaying as a big point) and i am able to replace it.
There might be a way to replace with such special char using its 2 bytes code
(but it is not very user friendly these 2 bytes codes = 4 coded character codes)
Using special symbols (like phone, enumerations or email signs)
is not easy (the insert dialog requires many actions before effect)
that is why i use >tel: or >em: text conventions instead of them
and then replace them for the whole doc.
That's probably the best workaround for now.
Post by unknown
If there was a "usefull & easy to access few character user-library"
(as there is some kind for the container objects)
that would easen the process.
This is about usability.
Currently Scribus only supports the special characters from the Insert menu
in that way. Feel free to submit a bug report requesting that feature.

/Andreas
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Re%3A-Usability-needs-attention----time-for-a-feature-tp15240401p15268570.html
Sent from the Scribus mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
unknown
2008-02-05 13:20:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Most fonts support more than one encoding. Unicode has the advantage that
*all* known encodings can be mapped to Unicode. If there are non-standard
glyphs in a font, they can still be mapped to the Private Use Area in
Unicode.
Internally Scribus stores Unicode only. So if a font fails to provide a
Unicode
mapping for its glyphs, it's lost to Scribus.
It seems that Scribus is not aware of this loss.

It would greatly help if Scribus was aware of that loss,
and would detect and stop the user attempt to do a mistake
instead of accepting it ...
and getting itself lost
(with this black hole phenomenum that destroy the doc ability to be further used).

Maybe this is a type of awareness that is globally missing,
but would lead to a more usable Scribus ?

JL
unknown
2008-02-04 14:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
If there was a "usefull & easy to access few character user-library"
(as there is some kind for the container objects)
that would easen the process.
In 1.3.4+, there is a user palette of characters that you can build, and
which is saved from one session to the next until you clear it out. So
this is already in development.

Greg
unknown
2008-02-04 02:13:11 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
For that matter, there is no perfect layout design -- at some
point you must say, "This is good enough, it meets my standards of
quality, but I have learned something with which I can make the next
design better." Thus it has been with Scribus.
</snip>

<snip>
Many of the complaints we hear about "why doesn't Scribus do
such-and-such like AppX?" really relate to us being creatures of habit.
</snip>

I would add also the reluctance to learn, or fear of learning a new AppX (which
produces the same result ) with a different UI.

An example close to home for me is my daughter and her learning Blender3d.
Dad, why doesn't blender do this or that, --- It does, like this.
I can't find the nnn funcion ---- its here.
Why aren't there any icons, yadda , yadda, yadda. ---- It doesn't need them, it
uses hot keys.
And it wasn't until she began using 3dmax that she realised how easy Blender
actually was to use.

I used MS Publisher until I found Scribus and my workload eased once I knew Scribus.

My point is that Scribus has a good UI, it is clear and unobtrusive.
My daughter, who has never used Scribus did an explanation sheet for me in 10
minutes.
Simply because she has no fear of different UI's.

Thank you Greg and Craig
Your explanations are of great help.

Roger


My daughters comments are below:
I use on average, 15 completely different applications every day, and and push
them to their limits, yesterday I found that I could
model for a project, in Blender in 2 hours, where in 3dmax and maya its double
or more time because the functionality is completely different and the UI is
much more complex. The blender UI is far easier and less time consuming, less
mouse intensive than any other proprietary software.

I have spent a lot of time with user interfaces due to my university course,
where I study how games are created and how the interaction works with those who
"use" the application. The UI of any application is vital to how the user uses
the application. The way the UI looks and feels depends on functionality. This
functionality is dependant on the user. If the user finds the UI difficult or is
too many mouse clicks away from performance, the user tries to find a more
"basic" or "simplified" way of making the program work.

Most applications are bent on the "mouse clicks away from performance", they
feel that the more clicks they make the better off the user will be. But sadly,
this is not the case. During my studies I found that a meager 10% of any
application is used at any one time and the remaining program is gone to waste.
This is due to UI.
Most major applications, for example, Studio Max, have menus - menus, menus and
more menus - and the user has to find themselves immersed in these menus before
they actually can use the program.
Menus are the bane of any applications existence, they are unnecessary in their
present form and fill up much needed work space on screen.
To do away with the current menu system will be a leap forward in UI development.

Menus can be changed to an interactive dynamic pop-up, like in Blender when you
hit Space Bar, or in Bryce where each object has a small vertical "box" menu on
the right side made up of four 10x10px squares and each has a pop-up that
appears when you click on it. With Bryce, the user must be coherent with what
each "box" does, although the name is clearly marked on the top of the dialog
box that appears, this makes the workspace clutter free.

Basically, what UI developers can ask themselves is :

1. Are we making a user friendly piece of software? - If so, then the
application must appear friendly. (not necessarily icons)
2. Do we want only 10% of our hard effort to be used? - No, then become dynamic,
use the all technologies available to create program dynamics.

We all have had experience in word dynamics, where you're typing something in
Open Office and the remainder of the word suddenly appears highlighted in blue -
and Wow! how did it know I was going to type that? Applications need menu
dynamics, like that.
The application should not be annoying - like in Microsoft Word where the little
yellow dog appears and suggests something ridiculous like "are you typing a
letter?" but something more advanced, more user friendly, more upbeat and up
with the times.

Each application needs to read what the user is doing at the point in time that
the user is doing it. 'Dynamics'. And show the alternate routes to getting the
most out of the application in the less amount of time.

Basically, the way games are going now is that they are pre-reading the human
mind and the AI characters choose to act in a way that "prevents", "deters" and
"suggests" a better route to the players character. This technology needs to be
included in software. This is what is neglected in applications. The technology
is there for games, why can't it be used in applications?

In reality it doesn't matter what the UI looks like, simply because the ones who
use it will become accustomed to it over time. It seems as though many programs
have 'all of the same problems', and this is because all UI's are based on the
"fundamentals" of program layout and not on "how does the user actually use it".

Thanks
Sonia

A simplistic instance that came to mind with Scribus was:
Open a new document, a popup says (T)ext (I)mage; (G)et, (A)ppend, (E)dit
depending on which selection is made opens the appropriate editor or files.
If text is placed in a text box and a spell or other error is apparent the
word/s is/are highlighted, the editor opens and the highlighted word offers a
list of alternatives with a possible recommendation for replacement . Just this
alone removes a number mouse clicks. The 'requestor' asks the user to enter
distances from page borders and other items or 'move with mouse'. then pop up a
'requestor' to enquire about locking, grouping, etc once the page is done.

If an image is placed near a text box: The 'requestor' shows the current
distances from text and page border and asks about the appropriate relationship
questions such as distance from text, page borders, scale to frame size, etc.

Mouseover a placed filled text box or image box a pop up 'requestor ' asks
(E)dit (T)ext (I)mage.
unknown
2008-02-04 02:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
I would add also the reluctance to learn, or fear of learning a new AppX (which
produces the same result ) with a different UI.
I have to agree. I, for my part, know and love Scribus, and am gearing
up to produce my third publication on it. However, I have some
trepidation about doing so, because of the other people in my office.
None of them do what I do, or even understand what I do, but they are
very nervous about me using something they're not familiar with.

With that in mind, I would not argue that Scribus' UI needs to be
exactly like other apps', but the learning curve needs to be as flat
as possible. Options need to accessible, but not obtrusive. I like
what someone said about emulating actual paper. I'll offer specific
suggestions when I have more time and energy.
--
Steve Herrick

You can fool some of the people all of the time,
and all of the people some of the time,
but you can make a fool of yourself any time.
unknown
2008-02-04 03:23:39 UTC
Permalink
10.000 points.
Post by unknown
<snip>
For that matter, there is no perfect layout design -- at some
point you must say, "This is good enough, it meets my standards of
quality, but I have learned something with which I can make the next
design better." Thus it has been with Scribus.
</snip>
<snip>
Many of the complaints we hear about "why doesn't Scribus do
such-and-such like AppX?" really relate to us being creatures of habit.
</snip>
I would add also the reluctance to learn, or fear of learning a new AppX (which
produces the same result ) with a different UI.
An example close to home for me is my daughter and her learning Blender3d.
Dad, why doesn't blender do this or that, --- It does, like this.
I can't find the nnn funcion ---- its here.
Why aren't there any icons, yadda , yadda, yadda. ---- It doesn't need them, it
uses hot keys.
And it wasn't until she began using 3dmax that she realised how easy Blender
actually was to use.
I used MS Publisher until I found Scribus and my workload eased once I knew Scribus.
My point is that Scribus has a good UI, it is clear and unobtrusive.
My daughter, who has never used Scribus did an explanation sheet for me in 10
minutes.
Simply because she has no fear of different UI's.
Thank you Greg and Craig
Your explanations are of great help.
Roger
I use on average, 15 completely different applications every day, and and push
them to their limits, yesterday I found that I could
model for a project, in Blender in 2 hours, where in 3dmax and maya its double
or more time because the functionality is completely different and the UI is
much more complex. The blender UI is far easier and less time consuming, less
mouse intensive than any other proprietary software.
I have spent a lot of time with user interfaces due to my university course,
where I study how games are created and how the interaction works with those who
"use" the application. The UI of any application is vital to how the user uses
the application. The way the UI looks and feels depends on functionality. This
functionality is dependant on the user. If the user finds the UI difficult or is
too many mouse clicks away from performance, the user tries to find a more
"basic" or "simplified" way of making the program work.
Most applications are bent on the "mouse clicks away from performance", they
feel that the more clicks they make the better off the user will be. But sadly,
this is not the case. During my studies I found that a meager 10% of any
application is used at any one time and the remaining program is gone to waste.
This is due to UI.
Most major applications, for example, Studio Max, have menus - menus, menus and
more menus - and the user has to find themselves immersed in these menus before
they actually can use the program.
Menus are the bane of any applications existence, they are unnecessary in their
present form and fill up much needed work space on screen.
To do away with the current menu system will be a leap forward in UI development.
Menus can be changed to an interactive dynamic pop-up, like in Blender when you
hit Space Bar, or in Bryce where each object has a small vertical "box" menu on
the right side made up of four 10x10px squares and each has a pop-up that
appears when you click on it. With Bryce, the user must be coherent with what
each "box" does, although the name is clearly marked on the top of the dialog
box that appears, this makes the workspace clutter free.
1. Are we making a user friendly piece of software? - If so, then the
application must appear friendly. (not necessarily icons)
2. Do we want only 10% of our hard effort to be used? - No, then become dynamic,
use the all technologies available to create program dynamics.
We all have had experience in word dynamics, where you're typing something in
Open Office and the remainder of the word suddenly appears highlighted in blue -
and Wow! how did it know I was going to type that? Applications need menu
dynamics, like that.
The application should not be annoying - like in Microsoft Word where the little
yellow dog appears and suggests something ridiculous like "are you typing a
letter?" but something more advanced, more user friendly, more upbeat and up
with the times.
Each application needs to read what the user is doing at the point in time that
the user is doing it. 'Dynamics'. And show the alternate routes to getting the
most out of the application in the less amount of time.
Basically, the way games are going now is that they are pre-reading the human
mind and the AI characters choose to act in a way that "prevents", "deters" and
"suggests" a better route to the players character. This technology needs to be
included in software. This is what is neglected in applications. The technology
is there for games, why can't it be used in applications?
In reality it doesn't matter what the UI looks like, simply because the ones who
use it will become accustomed to it over time. It seems as though many programs
have 'all of the same problems', and this is because all UI's are based on the
"fundamentals" of program layout and not on "how does the user actually use it".
Thanks
Sonia
Open a new document, a popup says (T)ext (I)mage; (G)et, (A)ppend, (E)dit
depending on which selection is made opens the appropriate editor or files.
If text is placed in a text box and a spell or other error is apparent the
word/s is/are highlighted, the editor opens and the highlighted word offers a
list of alternatives with a possible recommendation for replacement . Just this
alone removes a number mouse clicks. The 'requestor' asks the user to enter
distances from page borders and other items or 'move with mouse'. then pop up a
'requestor' to enquire about locking, grouping, etc once the page is done.
If an image is placed near a text box: The 'requestor' shows the current
distances from text and page border and asks about the appropriate relationship
questions such as distance from text, page borders, scale to frame size, etc.
Mouseover a placed filled text box or image box a pop up 'requestor ' asks
(E)dit (T)ext (I)mage.
_______________________________________________
Scribus mailing list
Scribus at nashi.altmuehlnet.de
http://nashi.altmuehlnet.de/mailman/listinfo/scribus
unknown
2008-02-04 09:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
In reality it doesn't matter what the UI looks like, simply because the ones who
use it will become accustomed to it over time. It seems as though many programs
have 'all of the same problems', and this is because all UI's are based on the
"fundamentals" of program layout and not on "how does the user actually use it".
Thanks
Sonia
OK, but for an app such as Scribus, how would you design the UI to
reflect how it's actually used ?

And there's a chicken and egg issue here as the way the user actually
uses the software at the moment is coloured the present and historic
UIs. The real question is perhaps,

"If you were designing a ui for somebody who had never touched a
computer, where would you start to best meet their needs ?"

Or is this hopelessly naive given how few people start from that initial
state ?

And do you make an app quick to learn by using conventional common
controls, or do you make the ideal user interface for the job, which
most user will not want to engage with initially ?

This isn't a new dilemma in the GUI environment. It seems analogous to
the lack of uptake of powerful but cryptic tools like APL whose syntax
scared off most users.


Cheers, J/.
--
John Beardmore, MSc EDM (Open), B.A. Chem (Oxon), CMIOSH, AIEMA, MEI
Managing Director, T4 Sustainability Limited. http://www.T4sLtd.co.uk/
Carbon Trust Consultant: Energy Audit, Carbon Footprint, Design Advice
Energy Efficiency Accreditation Scheme Registered Assessor
P:0845 4561332 F:0870 0522417 M:07785 563116 Skype:t4sustainability
unknown
2008-02-04 18:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by unknown
In reality it doesn't matter what the UI looks like, simply because the
ones who use it will become accustomed to it over time. It seems as
though many programs have 'all of the same problems', and this is
because all UI's are based on the "fundamentals" of program layout and
not on "how does the user actually use it".
Thanks
Sonia
OK, but for an app such as Scribus, how would you design the UI to
reflect how it's actually used ?
And there's a chicken and egg issue here as the way the user actually
uses the software at the moment is coloured the present and historic
UIs. The real question is perhaps,
"If you were designing a ui for somebody who had never touched a
computer, where would you start to best meet their needs ?"
Or is this hopelessly naive given how few people start from that initial
state ?
And do you make an app quick to learn by using conventional common
controls, or do you make the ideal user interface for the job, which
most user will not want to engage with initially ?
This isn't a new dilemma in the GUI environment. It seems analogous to
the lack of uptake of powerful but cryptic tools like APL whose syntax
scared off most users.
Cheers, J/.
I am less concerned with interface than with capability and reliability.
Better H & J is a must, and I think the algorithms of plain pdftex (not
pdflatex which has too much textual overhead) represent a sensible path. If
the TeX approach works for InDesign can we settle for less with Scribus?
--
John Culleton
Resources for every author and publisher:
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf
http://wexfordpress.com/tex/packagers.pdf
http://www.creativemindspress.com/newbiefaq.htm
http://www.gropenassoc.com/TopLevelPages/reference%20desk.htm

__________________________________________________
D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!"
http://www.doteasy.com
unknown
2008-02-04 08:54:21 UTC
Permalink
I really like this Blender-3dmax analogy.
Post by unknown
An example close to home for me is my daughter and her learning Blender3d.
Dad, why doesn't blender do this or that, --- It does, like this.
I can't find the nnn funcion ---- its here.
Why aren't there any icons, yadda , yadda, yadda. ---- It doesn't need them, it
uses hot keys.
And it wasn't until she began using 3dmax that she realised how easy Blender
actually was to use.
Race cars and tractors have different "UI"s, but still they
share much of the nomenclatura.
Myself I started with 3dmax and now I'm sort of stuck
learning Blender. My fault; I've seen advanced blender users
work on the speed of light, I haven't taken enough time
getting used to the UI. This means there are two learning
curves; one for the UI and another for the 3D
terminology/methodology. Suppose the same applies to DTP.

<snip>During my studies I found that a meager 10% of any
application is used at any one time and the remaining
program is gone to waste. This is due to UI.</snip>

Maybe this is also due to the "one application who does it
all" syndrome ? (as opposed to "one application with really
determined area of interest").

-PS: in menu-intensive applications like 3dmax, photoshop
etc. to be in a productive environment, one tends to spread
out all those small windows/dialogs - and get yourself a
second or third monitor. Then you start to feel the need for
the concept of "workspaces" :-)

Good comments, instructive discussion

regards

Sveinn ? Felli
unknown
2008-02-04 13:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
"If you were designing a ui for somebody who had never touched a
computer, where would you start to best meet their needs ?"
Now, being "beginner friendly" is in my opinion COMPLETELY different from
being "user friendly".


User friendly means that a user shall easily find the functions they look
for, and that they know exist. Also, common tasks shall be easy to
perform.


Imagine working in a text editor where you would always have to first
choose "select" in a menu to be able to select text. Then choose "copy" in
a menu, move the cursor and select "paste" in a menu. And finally go back
to the selection, select it (using that same menu again, and trying to
remember how much you selected before) and the choose "delete" in a menu.
Is that user friendly?

It is VERY beginner friendly, since all commands are in menus (thus you do
not need to know that the command exists) and commands only do ONE thing.
You do not have to learn that you select text keeping shift depressed or
that you can "cut" and "paste", and you don't have to learn the functions
of the different "special keys" on the keyboard.

To make a good user friendly interface you normally need statistics about
which actions people do most.

/Peter
unknown
2008-02-04 18:37:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:28:29 +0100 (CET)
Post by unknown
Imagine working in a text editor where you would always have to first
choose "select" in a menu to be able to select text. Then choose "copy" in
a menu, move the cursor and select "paste" in a menu. And finally go back
to the selection, select it (using that same menu again, and trying to
remember how much you selected before) and the choose "delete" in a menu.
Is that user friendly?
http://vigor.sourceforge.net/
--
MELVILLE THEATRE ~ Melville Sask ~ http://www.melvilletheatre.com
unknown
2008-02-05 03:39:15 UTC
Permalink
The example proffered below by Peter Nermander is a straw man.
Post by unknown
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:28:29 +0100 (CET)
Post by unknown
Imagine working in a text editor where you would always have to first
choose "select" in a menu to be able to select text. Then choose "copy" in
a menu, move the cursor and select "paste" in a menu. And finally go back
to the selection, select it (using that same menu again, and trying to
remember how much you selected before) and the choose "delete" in a menu.
Is that user friendly?
Keyboard shortcuts and menus are not mutually exclusive. Yes, you
can have both (fancy that). And a well-designed GUI will teach you
what the keyboard shortcuts are so that you can progress from novice
to intermediate to expert: File > Save (Ctrl-s), Edit > Copy
(Ctrl-c). It's sort of handy if the keyboard shortcuts are mnemonic
wherever possible. In FrameMaker you have Esc e c (meaning e=edit,
c=copy), etc.

Another rule of thumb is that all context menus should also be
available from the main menubar and menus. A program whose name I
forget also used to pop up little messages like: "I see you are using
Edit > Copy frequently. Do you know that pressing Ctrl-c also copies
the selection?" How friendly!

The people who argue that the Scribus GUI is fine as it is, generally
argue that once people learn a GUI then it doesn't matter how it is
designed. One would therefore expect that especial care had been
taken to ensure that it was easy to learn, right? Would anybody like
to argue that this is the case? But the conundrum for GUI designers
is that you need to somehow cater for both novice and expert, not
putting obstacles in the way of the former but not hampering the
latter with clutter. That's why so many GUIs now allow you to
customise them. And that's why it is important for a GUI to teach
shortcuts. That way, all functions should be available by the
(possibly inefficient) menus so the user can gradually progress to
quicker ways of achieving their goals.

The extreme example is the original Emacs, entirely keyboard and
command driven, which placed enormous demands on your memory but was
very efficient "once you had learned its UI". But it took years to
learn from very bad documentation that could not be searched and had
no index. Anyone brave enough to propose an entirely keyboard driven Scribus?

Pip, pip!
Hedley


--
Hedley Stewart Finger
28 Regent Street Camberwell VIC 3124 Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229 Mobile +61 412 461 558,
E-mail <mailto:hfinger at handholding.com.au>
unknown
2008-02-05 14:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Keyboard shortcuts and menus are not mutually exclusive. Yes, you
can have both (fancy that). And a well-designed GUI will teach you
what the keyboard shortcuts are so that you can progress from novice
to intermediate to expert: File > Save (Ctrl-s), Edit > Copy
(Ctrl-c). It's sort of handy if the keyboard shortcuts are mnemonic
wherever possible. In FrameMaker you have Esc e c (meaning e=edit,
c=copy), etc.
If you are actually using Scribus (you write as if you perhaps are not)
you will see that Scribus has menus, has keyboard shortcuts, has a
toolbar with icons, so for many common operations there are at least 3
ways of activation. And you can turn keyboard shortcuts into whatever
you feel is a better mnemonic.

There is also the very handy F12, followed by 4-digit Unicode to insert
whatever character you might use frequently yet not be present on your
keyboard.

On a practical level, one can only remember so many shortcuts at a time,
and sooner or later you run out of easy to remember mnemonics.

Greg
unknown
2008-02-05 19:28:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 09:12:00 -0500
Post by unknown
There is also the very handy F12, followed by 4-digit Unicode to insert
whatever character you might use frequently yet not be present on your
keyboard.
I used Scribus 1.3.3.9 on Gutsy x86_64. The normal system-wide way to
insert special characters in Linux is Ctrl-Shift-u, followed by the hex
code, then spacebar. This works just about everywhere, except in
Scribus, where it is F12.

Someone here once told me the reason for making it F12 is because
Scribus is cross-platform. However, that doesn't make sense to me.
Windows and MacOS have system-wide insert special character shortcuts
similar to Linux - Alt+decimal with numeric keypad on Windows and
Alt-hex on Mac except that on Mac you have to pad the hex with leading
zeroes to make it four characters.

OpenOffice.org is also cross-platform and it uses the input shortcuts
of the operating system instead of remapping to a special key. I have
never understood why I have to try to remember that it is F12 in
Scribus.

Loading...