Discussion:
Windows can't crash - very strange comment
(too old to reply)
Roger
2009-03-23 23:33:38 UTC
Permalink
I have never heard of anything else crashing on a
Windows platform.
as far as i know, windows can't even crash, unless you
use very unreliable
software like scribus.
Either that is the most unfair comment I have heard or it is a piece of humour,
can't decide..

I gave up running windows because of the continual crashes, very unreliable
software, blue screen of death, no way of getting data back after a crash, no
help at all from any proprietary vendors, no way of getting things addressed or
fixed, no help from other users or the web searches, etc, etc. And I was using a
well known 3d modeling application and internet explorer, nothing more.

I switched to Blender, Scribus, OpenOffice,Firefox and Thunderbird and have not
had those problems for many many years.

If on the rare chance that scribus crashes on Linux, Its because I choose to use
unstable svn's, against all advice but then I also run cutting edge os at the
same time, Linux has never crashed for me even when using early alpha versions.

I used the stable versions of Scribus for years with no indication of a glitch
let alone crashes so I would like to suggest that if Scribus crashes on your
machine then it is something else causing the fault.

I wouldn't go back to windows as my primary os for all the tea in China.

May I suggest to put in a small amount of time to learn linux, about the same
time you took to learn windows, and run linux as your main os, using windows
only and if absolutely necessary.

Roger
Fritz Eichelhardt
2009-03-24 11:10:28 UTC
Permalink
hi all,
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: [scribus] Windows can't crash - very strange comment
I have never heard of anything else crashing on a
Windows platform.
as far as i know, windows can't even crash, unless you
use very unreliable
software like scribus.
Either that is the most unfair comment I have heard or it is a piece of
humour, can't decide..
it's a pity, but i can't afford this lovely peace of
software and have to use
linux instead.
by pure luck, scribus/linux never crashes here.
if that was meant as a (unfair) comment, it would be very stupid as well.
an os that can be crashed by a software, is crap, not an os.

i have to admit: even my few remained friends find my humour sometimes
somewhat strange, but they got used to it.

btw: i write almost everthing, even my (business-)letters, in scribus.
helloooooo
can i come and live in your world? where windows never
crashes?
shure - always welcome.
the name of that world is linux.
--
Mit freundlichen Gr??en

Fritz Eichelhardt
Br?ckenstr. 1
53545 Linz
Tel.: 02644 - 3784
Fax/UMS: 01212 - 517045068
Jeffrey Silverman
2009-03-24 14:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Once again, we've diverted off-topic. But I think that's fine, I mean,
I'm certainly not one to talk.

Anyway, I thought I'd chime in. Me: I am a big Linux and f/oss
advocate. I don't use Windows (or Mac OS, ftm) if I can help it. And
mostly, I can help it. I work for a company that hosts and supports a
major OSS product for the education market. I've put "environment must
be amenable to use of open source software" on my resume. I won't even
apply for jobs that will force me to use a Windows desktop (and
luckily I have been able to do this successfully)

However, and I know these comments have mostly been tongue-in-cheek[1]
but I am not an advocate of OS bashing, even if it is for sound
reasons. I have been using Linux for more than 10 years, and
exclusively[2], at home *and* at work, for at least 7 years, as both a
desktop OS and a server OS. In that time, I have experienced many
problems, including crashes and instability. OTOH, Windows 2000,
Windows XP (all patched and updated) hardly ever crashes. So, some
points to bring thsi discussion closer to reality:

- Linux is not the OS, it is the kernel. The OS includes all that
other stuff, too, so you can actually use it. I've seen comments
pretty close to "Linux OS never crashes" and that is patently false.
If X crashes (and it certainly does), does that mean that your OS has
not crashed? It is splitting hairs, but from the POV of the desktop
user, if X has crashed, the OS has crashed.

- Windows 2000 and XP are actually *extremely* stable OSes. I can't
vouch for Vista. The days of BSODs and other lockups and crashes
ended, mostly, with the EOL of Win 98.

- Windows crashes and Linux crashes usually amount to the same thing:
a driver issue. Most frequently video drivers. Given sample
installations of Windows XP with MS-blessed drivers and a Linux
installation with the most stable possible driver versions (not sure
about blessings), neither OS will crash, pretty much.

- Most comparisons of Windows vs Linux are so apples vs oranges as to
be very unrealistic. This goes for comparisons made by both the
Windows-promoting MS monoculture and the Linux-promoting F/OSS
culture. I have seen very few, if any, good comparisons made with very
similar starting points. Similar machines, similar software installed,
similar driver stability, etc. Most comparisons can be thrown right
out the window (no pun intended)

- Many F/OSS products, while great, are still also very unstable or
buggy. Biggest case in point is Firefox. Firefox (or "The Web
Browser") is probably the single most used app on today's desktop.
However, and this goes for my Windows using coworkers, FF is unstable
as hell. It crashes at least daily. Internet Explorer, while sucky for
web developers, sucky for maintaining desktop security, and sucky for
a number of other reasons, at least doesn't crash. I'm talking IE6.
Dunno about stability of IE7, but I'm guessing its comparable.

YIKES! I cannot believe I am defending Microsoft, but there it is. I
know the community here tends to be anti-microsoft, as many F/OSS
communities are, but really I prefer to see balanced arguments and not
just plain ol' bashing.

Thanks! Seeya! Later!





[1] Whatever that means. I've never really got that expression.
[2] With some minor exceptions that couldn't be helped
Post by Fritz Eichelhardt
hi all,
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: [scribus] Windows can't crash - very strange comment
I have never heard of anything else crashing on a
Windows platform.
as far as i know, windows can't even crash, unless you
use very unreliable
software like scribus.
Either that is the most unfair comment I have heard or it is a piece of
humour, can't decide..
it's a pity, but i can't afford this lovely peace of
software and have to use
linux instead.
by pure luck, scribus/linux never crashes here.
if that was meant as a (unfair) comment, it would be very stupid as well.
an os that can be crashed by a software, is crap, not an os.
i have to admit: even my few remained friends find my humour sometimes
somewhat strange, but they got used to it.
btw: i write almost everthing, even my (business-)letters, in scribus.
helloooooo
can i come and live in your world? where windows never
crashes?
shure - always welcome.
the name of that world is linux.
<snip!>
--
JDS
John Culleton
2009-03-24 18:21:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday 24 March 2009 10:45:04 am Jeffrey Silverman
Post by Jeffrey Silverman
Once again, we've diverted off-topic. But I think that's
fine, I mean, I'm certainly not one to talk.
Anyway, I thought I'd chime in. Me: I am a big Linux and
f/oss advocate. I don't use Windows (or Mac OS, ftm) if I
can help it. And mostly, I can help it. I work for a
company that hosts and supports a major OSS product for
the education market. I've put "environment must be
amenable to use of open source software" on my resume. I
won't even apply for jobs that will force me to use a
Windows desktop (and luckily I have been able to do this
successfully)
However, and I know these comments have mostly been
tongue-in-cheek[1] but I am not an advocate of OS
bashing, even if it is for sound reasons. I have been
using Linux for more than 10 years, and exclusively[2],
at home *and* at work, for at least 7 years, as both a
desktop OS and a server OS. In that time, I have
experienced many problems, including crashes and
instability. OTOH, Windows 2000, Windows XP (all patched
and updated) hardly ever crashes. So, some points to
- Linux is not the OS, it is the kernel. The OS includes
all that other stuff, too, so you can actually use it.
I've seen comments pretty close to "Linux OS never
crashes" and that is patently false. If X crashes (and it
certainly does), does that mean that your OS has not
crashed? It is splitting hairs, but from the POV of the
desktop user, if X has crashed, the OS has crashed.
- Windows 2000 and XP are actually *extremely* stable
OSes. I can't vouch for Vista. The days of BSODs and
other lockups and crashes ended, mostly, with the EOL of
Win 98.
- Windows crashes and Linux crashes usually amount to
the same thing: a driver issue. Most frequently video
drivers. Given sample installations of Windows XP with
MS-blessed drivers and a Linux installation with the most
stable possible driver versions (not sure about
blessings), neither OS will crash, pretty much.
- Most comparisons of Windows vs Linux are so apples vs
oranges as to be very unrealistic. This goes for
comparisons made by both the Windows-promoting MS
monoculture and the Linux-promoting F/OSS culture. I have
seen very few, if any, good comparisons made with very
similar starting points. Similar machines, similar
software installed, similar driver stability, etc. Most
comparisons can be thrown right out the window (no pun
intended)
- Many F/OSS products, while great, are still also very
unstable or buggy. Biggest case in point is Firefox.
Firefox (or "The Web Browser") is probably the single
most used app on today's desktop. However, and this goes
for my Windows using coworkers, FF is unstable as hell.
It crashes at least daily. Internet Explorer, while sucky
for web developers, sucky for maintaining desktop
security, and sucky for a number of other reasons, at
least doesn't crash. I'm talking IE6. Dunno about
stability of IE7, but I'm guessing its comparable.
YIKES! I cannot believe I am defending Microsoft, but
there it is. I know the community here tends to be
anti-microsoft, as many F/OSS communities are, but really
I prefer to see balanced arguments and not just plain ol'
bashing.
Thanks! Seeya! Later!
[1] Whatever that means. I've never really got that
expression. [2] With some minor exceptions that couldn't
be helped
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Fritz Eichelhardt
Post by Fritz Eichelhardt
hi all,
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: [scribus] Windows can't crash - very strange
comment
I have never heard of anything else crashing on
a Windows platform.
as far as i know, windows can't even crash, unless
you use very unreliable
software like scribus.
Either that is the most unfair comment I have heard or
it is a piece of humour, can't decide..
it's a pity, but i can't afford this lovely peace of
software and have to use
linux instead.
by pure luck, scribus/linux never crashes here.
if that was meant as a (unfair) comment, it would be
very stupid as well. an os that can be crashed by a
software, is crap, not an os.
i have to admit: even my few remained friends find my
humour sometimes somewhat strange, but they got used to
it.
btw: i write almost everthing, even my
(business-)letters, in scribus.
helloooooo
can i come and live in your world? where windows never
crashes?
shure - always welcome.
the name of that world is linux.
<snip!>
On my Slackware 12.2 and previous versions of Slackware, FF
has not been crashing. Kmail used to crash on huge
search-and-filter missions (hundreds or thousands of saved
emails) but it doesn't any more.

On covers etc. the occasional Scribus freeze or crash is
best handled by fairly frequent saves of the sla file. In
fact that should be a feature of Scribus -- timed saves to
the original file or preferably to a different named backup
file (a la Vim) with a short interval, perhaps every 5
seconds or so, user selectable. As I remember it was only
an unstable version that ever crashed.
--
John Culleton
Able Indexers and Typesetters
http://wexfordpress.com
Calum Polwart
2009-03-25 21:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Culleton
On covers etc. the occasional Scribus freeze or crash is
best handled by fairly frequent saves of the sla file. In
fact that should be a feature of Scribus -- timed saves to
the original file or preferably to a different named backup
file (a la Vim) with a short interval, perhaps every 5
seconds or so, user selectable. As I remember it was only
an unstable version that ever crashed.
It is... they are saved to a file called something like *.sla.bak just
rename it, and it'll open.

If your really lucky you may get *.sla.emergency (although its years
(1.2 release of scribus) since I had one of them!)

Only trouble with autosaves is if the file is huge it takes a while...
So 5 seconds is not real! I have mine set at 5 minutes on the svn
version which I have to say does fall over from time to time. Just
remember to press save after doing fiddly stuff...

Advantage of scribus crashes on linux over certain other software on
windows is it usually only crashes scribus. On certain other software
it can take down the whole OS! But would agree with comments before XP
has become relatively stable... must have been why M$ released vista as
their users would get worried if they had a stable platform!
Steven Dayton
2009-03-25 22:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Calum Polwart
Advantage of scribus crashes on linux over certain other software on
windows is it usually only crashes scribus. On certain other software
it can take down the whole OS!
I haven't had Vista crash on me yet. When Scribus crashed (only one time so
far) it was only Scribus and nothing else.

Steven
Jeffrey Silverman
2009-03-25 23:09:40 UTC
Permalink
<snip!>
Post by Calum Polwart
Advantage of scribus crashes on linux over certain other software on
windows is it usually only crashes scribus. ?On certain other software
it can take down the whole OS!<snip!>
See, now that's what I'm talking about. And that hasn't been true for
any Windows OS since WinMe, certainly.

seeya
--
JDS
Carl Symons
2009-03-24 14:38:44 UTC
Permalink
From: Roger <hovergo at net-tech.com.au>
Subject: [scribus] Windows can't crash - very strange comment
I have never heard of anything else crashing on a
Windows platform.
as far as i know, windows can't even crash, unless you
use very unreliable
software like scribus.
Either that is the most unfair comment I have heard or it is a piece of humour,
can't decide..
I gave up running windows...
<snip>
May I suggest to put in a small amount of time to learn linux, about the same
time you took to learn windows, and run linux as your main os, using windows
only and if absolutely necessary.
Roger
It was a joke, Roger. I too gave up running Windows in favor of Linux
several years ago.

My experience is virtually the same as yours. If I tempt the Fates by
installing something that is brand new, I know that it is not for
production. In fact, almost always, the developers explicitly state
the risk.

For example, the Chrome browser is available for Linux as Chromium.
When it launches, there is a big red stop sign, and the following
warning:
"This browser is not ready yet! This is a pre-alpha build of Chromium
on Linux. It is woefully incomplete."
Further down the page is a request not to file bugs, because there are
so many known gaping holes that finding bugs is not a problem, and
dealing with them is a distraction.

Carl
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